Do you know there is a difference between guilt and shame? Self-worth and awe?

I met John Perry on my Barefoot training course 10 years ago and something he said about Driver Behaviours was part of what gave me the push to leave my marriage.  I don’t think we have spoken since then, but we have exchanged the odd email and vaguely kept in touch and so I was over the moon when he agreed to talk to me on the podcast.

So, the difference?

Guilt is when you do something wrong.  Shame is when you feel like you are wrong.

I told John a story about a time I shouted at one of my kids when they were young.  I did something wrong. So this is something to feel guilty about and guilt is useful because it flags up to me that there is something which needs correcting.  Shame (which is what I told him I felt) is the belief, that I am a bad person….which I’m not, but there is something that the memory of that incident triggers in me which makes me feel like I wasn’t good enough (an old story in my life).

Which then links to self-esteem.  At the time when I shouted at the kids, I had lots of things going for me, a career, a PhD, two masters degrees, house, car etc.  I was also married.  All these things matter to self-esteem because it is how we feel ourselves in comparison to the external world, it is our sense of how we measure up.


In spite of having all those letters after my name, at that time my self-worth was very low.

I didn’t feel that I was good enough. Old story. Strong story.  A much quieter story now but one which still appears at times and when it does it feels like sinking into a boggy hole.

This explains why so many of the kids I used to see in schools, the high achieving kids, getting good grades with university offers coming out of their ears, would still feel anxious and not good enough; because they are chasing self-esteem rather than self-worth.

Self-worth I have learned very slowly, has come for me, from trusting myself, from listening to my inner voice, to knowing that I am OK and loved not matter what I do, wear, say or fail at.

Which is where the awe comes in.  Awe walks are when we go for a walk in nature and really pay attention to all our senses; what we see, hear, smell, touch, tase and smell. Awe walks are when we feel that we are not just watching the natural world, but part of it, intrinsically, essentially, unequivocably.  Certainly during lockdown when I have felt alone and sad, walking with the trees and birds has helped me see that I can never really be alone.

John is warm, knowledgable and wise so please do listen as he moves us through a conversation which for me certainly gave me insights I needed.

John Perry (MA, MA, MA, MSc, FHEA) is an award-Winning Wellbeing Consultant, Coach, Speaker, Facilitator, Supervisor and BACP Registered Counsellor.  He was a Principal Teaching Fellow in the Faculty of Medicine at the University of Southampton; and is a Freelance Coach, Trainer & Wellbeing Consultant. He has a background in Teaching, Counselling, Coaching, Psychotherapy and Hypnotherapy; and has particular interests in Psychological Resilience and in Coaching & Psychotherapy Integration. John holds four Masters degrees and over a dozen Professional Diplomas.

Here are some links to John:



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